Citizens Prerogative Podcast Closed Caption Transcript
S3 E64 No Establishment and Free Exercise of Religion

10:48:24 This is episode number 64. We are still in Season 3, and the name of this episode, if it makes it to press will be no establishment, and free exercise today's episode is going to be all about the first amendment specifically our rights to Practice.
10:48:45 Any or no religion of our choice.
10:48:51 Freedom Freedom from persecution, not freedom to persecute.
10:48:59 Funny how that goes? So we're gonna jump right in
10:49:03 The the first Amendment Holds, many Liberties, it's a big one, and they are of the utmost Importance, to Self-rule, one of these Liberties in particular was captured in the very First 16 words, of the Amendment this is to the beginning of the Amendment
10:49:26 It goes like this, Congress shall make no law, respecting an establishment of religion, prohibiting the free exercise thereof
10:49:41 No official religion, no state, religion, no establishment of religion, and no prohibition against religion.
10:49:57 It was designed this way, because many of the founders had no interest in the tyranny of theocratic regimes.
10:50:07 I mean, after all the King of England, a Protestant religion was created by one of the Kings, because Catholicism was unpopular, with them.
10:50:16 Inconvenient actually I should say so, so
10:50:18 Divorce was not available. So they need to divorce. So, like, so what do you do, you set up your own church, but back. Then you could do it because not not everyone could write a book not everyone knew how to write a read.
10:50:31 The Church of England, and if we were to quote Eddie? Yes, sir, what would he say the bastards religion sure
10:50:38 But like I'll call it the I think it the it was Henry, the Eighth Who's like I'll call I'll call it the the sin, the French Bastard religion, like what do we call Church, of England, Sir
10:50:53 I'm Sure I Miss Quoted Eddie.
10:50:52 Oh, I love comedy
10:50:58 They deserve that's okay, that one that one came out of the wing.
10:50:55 I didn't do him the the honor that she they deserve
10:51:03 We we wing weighing that one but I mean it it's a interesting so the King of England creates a new religion, there what they're like ordained by God in this religion, and so if you think about that the fact that we're fighting for independence, getting away from those types of
10:51:23 You know theocratic or authoritative regimes.
10:51:26 This is where the opening of the very first amendment, to the constitution comes into play.
10:51:33 It was very important in near and dear to their hearts.
10:51:37 So like I said they had no interest in the tyranny of theocratic regimes, and it was something in fact that was very present in their lives, and in their minds.
10:51:47 After all, they were farers, lawyers, businessmen, and plantation owners.
10:51:55 Many founders did not even subscribe to a religious tradition, or a church, nor did they want to be forced to live under the rules of any one of them.
10:52:06 And there were several flavors of religion around the country at that time, just like today.
10:52:13 And if you need to understand the power dynamics, I mean, don't don't forget that like churches had the money.
10:52:19 They had the temples they had. You know, the everyone is obsessed, that religion is so important because of the arts and everything they created but those poor sculptors, and those or artists, they they needed work they needed money, so and the Church had the money the Church had the power and you have to understand not
10:52:40 To side with the crazy king, a bit. But he was right.
10:52:45 The Church has had control over the entire world, the known world at that at that time they were extremely powerful and they were heavily allied to the Spanish.
10:52:56 It was a very bad situation in general
10:53:00 Yeah, it was interesting around that, time. Right? How Catholicism had been embedded in all of the or many of the powerful European States of the day, and so they were there behind the scenes Brokering whether or Not there was going to be war, whether or not there was going to be peace, who is paying the proper
10:53:21 Right.
10:53:19 Tithes to the church or not, and maybe the Church needed to call in some troops. Huh!
10:53:23 And it's barbarism see who they could just kill you
10:53:28 The Inquisition, okay, we're a little in any case we're just helping to illustrate the reasons why there was a Healthy Amount of skepticism, in our in the fresh fresh in the Minds of our founding fathers Founders that fathers, things got to
10:53:51 go to the trash and the founders were very much concerned about the power of the State being thwarted by all of these third-party, you know perspectives, so at the end of the day, just Considering the first 16 words of the first amendment in we should read in really that the government.
10:54:11 is doing its best to mean, to have, to intend to have and provide an environment with a live and let live Policy under our laws, like all all citizens of the United States.
10:54:27 Anybody who is subject to the jurisdiction of the laws of the Us.
10:54:32 Our you know, gonna have to live under those rules. So we don't want them to be we don't want them to come from anywhere.
10:54:40 But Congress, but our representative government, right, we we establish that for reasons, because we all have to figure out how to get along under this one, organization, this one nation, this one set of policies and laws, and no.
10:54:56 You know. No one group in particular. This, is the point of checks and balances is for no one group in particular to have undue authority
10:55:07 So over. Time, things has shifted. I mean. It's been a long time since the Constitution was written.
10:55:16 The Amendments, the original amendments were passed, and you know the courts have had many years to try and add precision to how to interpret some of these laws, so we end up in a very interesting.
10:55:27 Place in this day and age, and in some of the past episodes we've talked a little bit about where certain policies, certain things that the government engages in seem like they're not clearly in the spirit of the Law that at some point something had come to bear to force us to make a decision that may have
10:55:50 not been in our own best interest for the long term in order to deal with something in the short term, you know one of the bullets we have here is about how organizations can get tax advantage status as you know a nonprofit or venture capital Churches I call them venture capital
10:56:09 Churches, cause, there are some Mega Money churches, out there, and and what are they doing?
10:56:15 Where are they investing their dollars? other than maybe? Lawmaking, and and and things of that nature, too.
10:56:23 Make sure that they're assets, and profits continue to go on taxed and unnoticed, to one Degree or another, what's really strange about this, you know and this is any religion, would be you know for one Way, or Another considered an Ominous even if they are making a profit, Right and then
10:56:45 I say, venture capital because some of those churches.
10:56:49 Don't just use the money for their own parishioners.
10:56:51 They use the money to expand the Church, its power, its influence, its reach, not just in our country, but around the globe, as well, so you know, one of the callouts here is that really the government should not respect an establishment of religion by providing a Tax free Ride, to these entities I mean
10:57:10 They, they're they're still, companies, I would say, at the end of the day, like a nonprofit is a business.
10:57:18 It's a company, but it doesn't have shareholder owners, right it's like a board of trustees that owns it and so they don't have to pay a dividend back to shareholders.
10:57:26 There's no, it's nonprofit just because it doesn't return profit to shareholders.
10:57:31 But that doesn't mean it can't make money.
10:57:34 And that doesn't mean it's not a company of course, it's a company.
10:57:37 Under the law, and you know churches kind of fit, that same dynamic, I mean just as a nonprofit and and do you know do nonprofits, do Churches use infrastructure I suspect, they do do they do they weigh on our legal system, I think they do do
10:57:55 they we weigh in on our law making. I think they do. You know.
10:57:59 And
10:57:59 So their their presence in our society, and in the system, and I don't understand why they aren't going to be able to pay their fair share.
10:58:09 As one, aspect, right
10:58:12 It's you're, absolutely right. It's a and I think just add to your list.
10:58:25 Then that puts, pressure on the legal System and There's, costs all that and normally it's paid through taxes.
10:58:33 But the flip side of that. Okay, so I'll even give that up I'll say you know what you want to make them all nonprofits, and they don't pay taxes, I'm willing to concede that to a certain degree however, there's, another Embedded, Inherent.
10:58:48 risk or issue with selecting certain entities, not having to pay taxes, like the government now is in the business, the Irs is in the business of deeming what is a religion or not right by the fact that as a group of people you have to apply to the irs under certain rules demonstrate certain things in order
10:59:12 to become classified, as a religion and earn. Your tax-free status, and whatever other protections.
10:59:21 I guess theoretically come along with it, like the like some people are arguing the right to discriminate, which is clearly illegal.
10:59:32 Why is the Irs in that mode I mean whenever they're looking at an application for a group of people who are applying to be recognized as a religion, to me is the act of establishing religion.
10:59:49 Right like somebody's Filing Paperwork and You're, saying, Yes or No, your legitimate religion. To me this clearly the government, in the practice of establishing official religions, which is a Viability of the first amendment of the Constitution
11:00:05 If we're going to acknowledge Corporations, as individuals, which which the Law clearly has I think it's it's very clear guidance. Right?
11:00:14 They get the same level of treatment. I pay my taxes.
11:00:18 Just like these individual corporations or entities, pay their taxes.
11:00:24 It's just. It seems strange to me that the structure and it's possibly abused across the Board, because you see, organizations like the the Nfl.
11:00:33 Which are nonprofits. I was shocked to find out that a huge portion of their work, core is all volunteers and that seems like I like what's the balance.
11:00:43 Between you know, really pushing the line of oh, yes, we're a nonprofit, or you're making massive profits.
11:00:50 And yet you're you're still saying, oh, but we're on profit.
11:00:54 We have all these volunteers to really cut down the bottom line.
11:01:01 Oh, yeah, that one's a big nasty web of mess, right?
11:01:06 Cause. I mean, you've got the the owners are buying these teams, as if their investment, how how is this an investment?
11:01:12 If it's not for profit, those those 2 things are not congruent.
11:01:15 They that doesn't make sense. You can't square that circle.
11:01:20 Hmm and you know I it it may sound like I'm harping on this, but these they're like you, said Ray.
11:01:29 Impropriety is is everywhere, and wherever this money gets pooled, siphoned out of the System Siphoned Out of Parishioners, Pockets.
11:01:35 So that they can enrich these heads of these groups, whether they're religions, or nonprofits.
11:01:43 Is questionable it doesn't make sense. Why, you know.
11:00:58 I don't understand
11:01:46 Why does that individual get to be rich and never pay an ounce of taxes?
11:01:52 Th th that's not fair and it's it's foundationally, not you know not not.
11:01:59 I don't think it's supported in our system, although we see it right like there's been bastardization.
11:02:05 I would say across the Board in all kinds of places, and we see it in inequality, in like, how people who make their money off of investments Don't have to pay the same tax rates as the rest of the people, who actually work for their hours, in life, it's Totally wrong but
11:02:21 That's a moral debate for another day.
11:02:26 So we have the government we have the Irs in the business of establishing, Religions, on Behalf, of the Government recognizing What's, a legitimate, religion, and What's not which seems very questionable
11:02:59 So on the Flip side We're We're talking about the establishment piece of this or what we say, the establishment clause in the first amendment, the other side of it, was Prohibiting, the free free exercise of religion, right I would say the Pivot Point just to Move on from the
11:03:14 Irs, declaring official religions, prohibiting the free exercise of religion is the Irs denying our religion, its application to be tax free.
11:03:27 Because now, it's forced to pay income tax as a burden or something you're preventing the free exercise of religion, because you're putting an undue burden on this group of people because you don't recognize their religion as official versus another religion, that now gets a free ride, right so I
11:03:44 Just I don't want to use the word slippery slope, but you can see where you know as soon as you step in that that mud, you're gonna be muddy there's no there's no way.
11:03:52 To get clean without actually fully. You know exiting the mud pond there
11:04:00 But let's also talk a little bit about what prohibiting the free exercise of religion looks like.
11:04:07 Besides, the Irs decline declining your application to to be a non tax, paying group of people
11:04:17 You know it could look like police raids on churches and parish leaders now generally.
11:04:24 If that were to happen under the law today, you would expect there to be some kind of controversy.
11:04:30 There's something going on there that's against the law whether it's molestation, murder, or something else right.
11:04:35 We have some pretty hard fast laws in this country, and it doesn't matter whether you're a part of a religion or not.
11:04:42 If you break those laws, it, we don't consider that a free exercise of religion, we we do establish some lines, just like, free speech right we always talk about the fact that you can't yell fire.
11:04:55 In a crowded room or a theater, because you're gonna cause a panic, and there's unless there is a fire, right if you're, causing a panic, then that free speech isn't protected if You're Using that Free Speech for some some Terrible Reason, and it's actually going to
11:05:11 inflict harm. We we have that logic
11:05:16 But if a police were to raid a church, or a parish, simply because because it's the wrong belief. System.
11:05:23 You know, maybe there's no no in particular evidence. I mean, maybe you didn't get your application pass and you chose not to pay taxes.
11:05:31 Now the Irs is sending somebody into company collect on that.
11:05:34 But absence of you know individuals, breaking laws, under a church.
11:05:40 We don't expect to see police raids on churches, right?
11:05:43 So that's what it would look like, and and maybe another country, or another place and time.
11:05:50 Some State power would be coming to bear to dismantle a church
11:05:58 That would also like could take its like what we used to happen quite often to gay people and gay bars right when the police would come, in and they would gin up all kinds of charges against them put them in the newspapers you know there's the possibility that that could have been applied to
11:06:14 maybe, certain religious groups and in certain communities. I almost said, Heaven forbid somebody somebody of a denomination that's just not supported, because We're Supposedly, a Christian country and somebody Moves in with a religion that is Offensive apparently, to that local community well, this Sheriff's you know may choose to come up
11:06:34 with some bogus charges, and put followers behind bars, right or or cause people to even die, while in police custody, or something like that so just throwing those out as possibilities, there's no I, I, don't have any News articles or evidence, to this i'm just trying to
11:06:52 illustrate, some of what Prohibiting, free Exercise of religion. Could look like, yeah, I imagine if we, went back in the history Books I'm Sure There's, some Examples of you know the State, or other groups kind of conducting, these types of Activities, against certain Religious Groups or communities.
11:07:10 What we've already mentioned it in in the sense of the Church of England, Right.
11:07:14 Because there was an active campaign, once Elizabeth took over.
11:07:18 You know post, the originator of the the church, it I mean it's basically a state run entity and they would they would have to deal with people that wanted the traditional Church to still Exist in England so you had people.
11:07:33 Praying underground, and you did have state raids, so I I would say that you know we were operating when it was when we were founded there was probably some fear of the state coming in and doing just that as well, right so it seems like a dual protection.
11:07:48 Area amendment, you know. Don't enable them.
11:07:51 But also don't disable them, which which was very active in in that time.
11:07:56 Yeah, we can throw out term intimidation there, too.
11:08:00 So you know Justice departments, putting out warnings once again, like for our Jewish comrades, and you know even black Churches, right so synagogues and black Churches unfortunately have a history in the United States of receiving Violent attacks, from other citizens, so That's, not an example, where
11:08:21 The State's coming in to take action. But individuals are taking action on their Own because of this you know, warped idea of well, during an official religion in the United States when There is none I mean we touched on some of that in our allies Ship episode so I'm not gonna Harp on that
11:08:41 So let's call out that the first amendment does not give rights to businesses to discriminate against customers because of religious beliefs selling a product to a Customer has nothing.
11:08:54 To do with exercising religion. Let's be clear.
11:08:59 Money, is green for everybody. And yeah, if you're not using money, if you're using some electronic version of it, those dollars those Usd Numbers are equivalent for everyone.
11:09:11 And if you are in business and you are selling a product discrimination is not allowed.
11:09:16 I mean, this goes back to this goes back to Jim Crow, south and and all kinds of things.
11:09:22 Right where you had whites only lunch counters and things of that nature.
11:09:28 It was just it's segregation, and it's it's not appropriate, it's not acceptable, and it's not legal in the United States and by putting a Gay, flag on a cake, when you're a Christian, is I have to say not in a front to the
11:09:45 Religion, you are not in the act of promoting anything.
11:09:49 You are delivering a service, or a product, for money, you're a for profit, business, or you're in business to make money, and you have to sell that product, to everyone, it has to be available to anyone who wants to purchase, it and you don't have to agree, with it you know if it's
11:10:07 Not illegal. Then you should be able to fulfill on that and so we're getting into this place.
11:10:13 Now where people are choosing to treat other people.
11:10:18 Based on their own religious beliefs, rather than the law
11:10:25 And that is very problematic, because your rights as a business owner, doesn't bring your religion in into consideration.
11:10:37 And if you feel like your business, your choice of operating a business is going to put you in conflict with your religious beliefs then don't be a prostitute, do something else go start a different business that doesn't force you air quotes to compromise, your religious fortitude, okay, it's
11:10:59 not your right, to pick and choose who your customers are?
11:11:03 Gonna be from that perspective. If it's a public business
11:11:07 Well, I would say, or at least advertise appropriately, make sure you put on your windows that please no, no people that have alternative licensees.
11:11:18 We only want a certain type of clientele. Just be just be clear.
11:11:22 You know the right to refuse service, just make a longer sign.
11:11:31 Yeah, and I suppose there's an argument to be made no no shoes, no shirt, no service and as long as that policy, is implemented and executed consistently and Fairly, then yeah, you probably, you probably, have grounds, there to protect your business, from nipples, or toes.
11:11:52 Last bullet on here before we switch out to a break.
11:11:57 There can be no religious tests to run for elected office
11:12:03 That's it's fundamental our laws, do not respect any establishments of religion.
11:12:09 There can be no religious test to run for office. You don't have to believe in any religion to run for office.
11:12:17 Culturally, we've had a struggle with this and this is where a lot of like even the irs and God.
11:12:23 We trust the Irs, recognizing religions and in God.
11:12:27 We trust being on our our currencies and various things, that all came out of the 19 fiftys, and trying to differentiate our way of life from communism.
11:12:35 It was a huge mistake, and it was made in a very short-sighted way because people are anchoring on that we've lost track of history, and people are anchoring on that like we're some kind of we have a state, religion.
11:12:48 And and we really don't, and there is no religious test to run for office whatsoever.
11:12:53 So you know anybody can run with any religion, or no religion at all, and culturally, you know, over the years.
11:12:59 I think people are starting to adjust to that and respect that expectation.
11:13:05 Although there's still many, many communities where people feel. They have to adopt, a certain religion in order to be active in politics, or win an election
11:13:21 And then I know it let's go ahead and take a break time.
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11:14:50 You know I'm going to go back to you, said the founders, and you mentioned the founding fathers, and you know, changing that verbiage a bit.
11:15:01 But maybe changing it, even further, I don't even know if it's the founders.
11:15:03 I wonder if in time, we all are the founders. You know the work that was left undone by those philosophers, if you will, they were just philosophers, they didn't have the answers they've, left it for Us.
11:15:19 For the past 200 plus years to soar out, this great experiment, a lot of questions unanswered, a lot of Work undone, such as slavery I mean that is a huge through on all all Fronts, you know, even getting the policy sorted out so when you think about the Hard work, that's, still going on
11:15:40 Today, maybe this is the point where we are the ones that are left with the figuring out, exactly what the details were, because some of them died Untimely, right, they Washington, became Sick and he Died before he was finished with more effort they still, wanted to do a little bit more fine-tuning
11:15:59 but just never happen
11:16:03 That's an awesome call, I it's it continues to be every generation's responsibility.
11:16:11 To build a more, perfect union.
11:16:14 And I like that every generation is another generation of founders moving moving it forward.
11:16:19 We hope.
11:16:24 So moving into some of our calls to action. You know one of the best ways to break down divides, is to ask questions, and find some common ground with those in our communities that are different from us you know, get to know your Muslim neighbor are you Jewish neighbor or your sikh neighbor are you among
11:16:48 Neighbour, or your Catholic Neighbour, your Christian, neighbor, your some other flavor of Christianity.
11:16:53 I forget all the denominations that we have in America.
11:16:56 It's quite prolific I think it's actually quite fascinating that Mmm. Pretty much all the varieties of Christianity exist in the Us.
11:17:05 We've really proliferated religion here, because free exercise is in the first amendment of the constitution.
11:17:13 So every flavor of religion you can imagine is available somewhere in a neighborhood near you get to know your neighbors, especially those who have no religion.
11:17:24 I think some of the younger Generations coming up now, or maybe slipping into majority Nuns.
11:17:32 We call it not n, UN, but n, o n, e, h they're not identifying with any officially established religion, but I suspect that they're aware of them they grew up with them.
11:17:44 They may have studied them. As I did in school, and for me, for my journey.
11:17:48 It was through studying all the religions, or as many of them, as I could, in a given course set of course work then it opened my mind to the fact that they're all just philosophies, they're all just past humans, trying to get future Humans to behave do things, in the most Constructive, way
11:18:08 Manner as possible, in the parables. They've given us warnings, and they've given us lessons and they've given us inspiration right in in these characters, in these stories, in these books and as you know, basically an anthropologist I would say, is my natural state, of thinking these are
11:18:30 All great forms of literature. But when a group of humans, takes this book turns it into a power structure.
11:18:39 We run into problems.
11:18:44 As a digression. But get to know your neighbors, get to know other religions, because the more you understand the fact that we're all just humans we all live.
11:18:52 At the intersectionality of humanity, and many of these books are things that just came to us in our upbringing in the hopes of guiding our lives, in the best way possible.
11:19:01 In most cases, not at all, we should be able to find that common ground in among one. Another.
11:19:07 Even if the books we read are different.
11:19:12 So, whatever you believe, seek out someone who believes differently and see if you can appreciate the what you have in common as humans, because there are things there I guarantee, you we all suffer the same conditions in this life, although some people have more or less ability, to alleviate, some, of
11:19:33 The conditions that some of us face no humans able to get out of their own minds, and sometimes our own minds are the scariest places to live
11:19:44 Lastly, for calls to action, seek, out and vote for representatives.
11:19:52 That fight to preserve our first amendment. Right? It's the right to exercise your religion.
11:19:59 It's your right. To be free from any state, sponsored religion, and if you choose, no religion to have the freedom to embark on that journey, as well in life, because it has liberty, belongs to each of us and live and let live is the best way, to move forward but we still have to respect
11:20:18 that and promote that for one, another.
11:20:24 I think in the end. Freedom is the benign influence of the government.
11:20:32 We shouldn't feel it we shouldn't see it.
11:20:59 I'm impressed. We made it through this whole episode without talking about abortion
11:20:35 It should just be something that exists, and with these Signatures and Tax Law and Decisions being made in the Bureaucracy Doesn't appear right doesn't appear Benign and I think It's an Infringement on Freedom for everyone Involved
11:21:07 Talking about oppression. depending on what state you live in, you have more or less freedoms we're back at it.
11:21:15 Again, that's no good. But this is what happens when some of these issues come home to Roost because they haven't actually been dealt with properly
11:21:27 Hmm! That's gonna do us call it a wrap.
11:21:31 We have been your host, thank you, Mr. Raymond, Wong, Jr.
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