S3 E45 | Doughnut Time: Our Sustainable Responsibility

S3 E45 Doughnut Time: Our Sustainable Responsibility

Discussion topics in this episode:

  • The future is barreling towards us, and for now, our way of living is highly unsustainable, so we are on the hunt for new solutions to put on the table.
  • Inspiration for this episode comes to us from Sweden, where only 1% of their trash ends up in a landfill. What are some lessons that we can learn from their example?
  • Enter microeconomic actor: ReTuna (thanks to Business Insider for covering) The world’s first secondhand mall. Located next to a recycling center, the Swedish mall repurposes everything from toys to furniture and electronics.
  • As we ask ourselves what world our children deserve to inherit, we must also ask more profound questions about our consumer-driven economy. We believe the new age will have communities coming together to demand better waste management for health’s sake.
  • Small business ownership presents an answer to how Americans may sustain their livelihoods and our nation. Major corporations have had ample time at the helm of capitalism, and frankly, there are no thanks due for their innovative use of more and more landfills.
  • Our age of self-rule means we can innovate and replace these dinosaurs of industry. As many have come to learn through experience, the act of scaling into a large company, one can predict the elimination of personalization and humanization for efficiency. In this area, small is more local and diverse. It also offers consumers more choices and presents us with more opportunities to attain entrepreneurship.
  • The towns and cities are much older than globalization. We believe it is entirely reasonable that the model of neighborhoods and local main streets will be the place for the future economy to thrive. With community-focused solutions such as ReTuna, we might even see a few malls come back along the way.
  • Calls to Action:
    • At the local level, we can explore recreating this model, which presents one example on the ground of circular or doughnut economics transition in action. A model where trash is turned into another person’s gold, being resold in a responsible and sustainable way.
      • Start with asking your city or county representative questions about what their sustainability plans are or how they’re planning to reduce carbon and methane emissions.
      • Then seek out proposals for what you think is missing and could be of benefit to your community.
      • Submit that proposal to the representative who responded to your question.
      • Seek out local groups who are also keen on implementing new ways to solve these problems in our communities.
    • The Citizens Campaign has great resources to help people get involved in their communities in a reconstructive way. Check it out if you really want to make a difference where you live.
    • Each of us can do more to consider the end-to-end life of our purchases and put to bed the long-standing practice of allowing marketing to divorce us from the true costs of unbridled consumption.







“Bright idea” image by Serge Shop.


  • Michael V. Piscitelli
  • Raymond Wong Jr.

More info

  • We have transcripts located at the end of each podcast episode’s page on our site. Check it out, but know this: It’s all AI and not us. So thank you in advance for forgiving any and all errors.

Disclaimer: The opinions expressed on this podcast are for listener consideration and are not necessarily those of the show or its sponsors.

Special thanks to

  • Our ongoing supporters, thank you!
  • Our sponsor CitizenDoGood.com .
  • Intro music sampled from “Okay Class” by Ozzy Jock under creative commons license through freemusicarchive.org.
  • Other music provided royalty-free through Fesliyan Studios Inc.


The following transcript was taken using AI technology. We cannot vouch for its accuracy. Read at your own risk. These are time-stamped from the day we recorded and unfortunately not name stamped.

Citizens Prerogative Podcast Closed Caption Transcript
S3 E45 Doughnut Time: Our Sustainable Responsibility

16:14:07 In times like these, being a citizen is a big job. Thank you for joining us to celebrate the virtues of self rule and debate the state of our republic.
16:14:16 Welcome to the citizens prerogative podcast. This is the voice of your nerdy host Michael Pisco Telly and we are blessed with a co host whose passion for our republic precedes him everywhere he goes Ramin warm Jr.
16:14:30 Thank you, thank you oh this economic economic Dona is so delicious.
16:14:37 This is episode number 45.
16:14:40 We are in season three. And the name of this episode is donut time. Our sustainable responsibility.
16:14:48 So those of you who follow us along.
16:14:52 Sometime in season two we introduce you all to donate economics and today we’re going to revisit just a piece of it.
16:14:59 So tasty.
16:15:03 Specifically, we want to zero in on because you know the whole doughnut concept is so big, we’re zeroing in today on a little nugget of sustainability that’s coming out of another country that we can learn something from which is pretty dang exciting,
16:15:17 and many things to you, Ray for picking up on this and sharing it through citizen do good. And now we have an opportunity to opine on the podcast.
16:15:29 So let’s jump into it.
16:15:31 The future is barreling towards us. And right now, our way of living is highly unsustainable. I am reading word for word Thank you Raymond your words were wonderful on Facebook inspiration from this episode comes to us from Sweden.
16:15:46 That was a big ass. Sorry everybody in Sweden there. There’s only 1% of their trash that ends up in a landfill. So, if it gives you any sense of what we’re talking about sustainability it’s about.
16:16:01 Today we’re talking about the full life cycle of a product like what happens when you’re done using it right we’re so focused on the consumer side of it, we aren’t really paying much attention to the end of life for these products and it’s high time,
16:16:18 over time, we have that consideration.
16:16:21 At the front of our mind when we’re actually buying things so inspiration in Sweden, only 1% and landfills were as where’s the united states i think the statistic was 50% 50% and you imagine that’s not, you’ve got some cities that are toeing the line
16:16:37 because I think San Francisco has an extremely low landfill, I released a goal of zero. Yeah, that’s right.
16:16:47 And we have composting and recycling but I’m kind of still in the traditional sense not like what we’re going to talk about today, right, we got cities like yours and others that are really leading this effort but I’m sure there are many cities that just
16:17:00 have plenty of landfill like there’s tons of landfills around the valley so I know we’re not a leader.
16:17:09 Oh gosh, and we’ll talk a little bit Well, maybe we won’t talk a little bit about the, you know, joke that recycling is in the United States, I think we decided that’s going to be a standalone topic, that’ll be a separate episode because it’s just so
16:17:21 meaty.
16:17:23 So today though. Enter center stage.
16:17:27 I guess it’s a company, I don’t know what to call it, but the name of it is retune.
16:17:32 And again, this isn’t Sweden. It’s the world’s first, second hand mall.
16:17:38 It’s a mall that was built right next to a recycling center. And so that, that mall is used to repurpose everything from toys to furniture that’s turned into the recycling center, by the Swedes.
16:17:51 It’s pretty inspiring.
16:17:53 I can say that it was, it was meaningful for me.
16:17:59 You know, because we, we have this major consumer driven economy, it’s, it’s the end of the world I suppose you know we have to ask, what we’re handing on to our children.
16:18:11 And this this economy that continues to inflate as we’re hearing from all the major news media’s media and such. Maybe the inflation really is because we’re throwing things around.
16:18:24 And we’ve created this situation where our waste is our own worst enemy. It’s out there in the background, generating all kinds of pollution, filling up the ground, taking up real estate space that can be used for other things in the future so I do think
16:18:41 that this this example was surprising to me, because I saw a parallel with what we have tons of garbage, so much that we use to export it but nobody wants it right now.
16:18:54 10 tons of garbage. And we also have a lot of dying shopping malls. So this, I think for all of us and our listeners, it should kind of speak to you, all of you have a mall in your neighborhoods, or your city somewhere.
16:19:09 That was a place to go, but is now fading, and it’s got a lot of empty space, that could be used for just this, just this effort.
16:19:18 Yeah, it’s pretty amazing. If you go to citizen, do goods Facebook page, there’s a video associated with this topic and it was really neat I mean I mentioned that the recycle centers located right next to the mall but what’s interesting about it is that
16:19:33 that full picture where the mall contains what a dozen or something stores, they’re all specialty and you know apparel or whatever, you know, various electronics.
16:19:43 Whenever the type of store you might expect to see in a mall.
16:19:47 But this is designed these stores are designed to bridge the full scope of the content that’s going to be coming into the recycling center. Right. And so they get literally the way this works the way I understood it worked and you can keep me honest because
16:19:59 you’re closer to it than I am.
16:20:02 The people who don’t want anything anymore they just, we would call it a donation here in the United States and maybe you’d get a tax write off on it.
16:20:09 But basically they’re giving their stuff away to the recycling center or donating it if it’s in the US.
16:20:17 And then they pick up that stuff they refurbish it.
16:20:20 And then they give it for free, to the stores in the mall and the mall so the product and they pay rent, they pay rent on their stores in the mall, they don’t pay for the refurbished product.
16:20:32 Now, you know, this is where we’d have to figure out how we translate this model into each of our local communities on a case by case basis but with Sweden happened to do in that local community is that the government kicked in some dollars right so the
16:20:46 facility that’s managing the repurposing of these donated items is covered essentially by tax dollars and now if you think about it in the United States today.
16:20:58 Let me just use the example I most close to San Francisco, we have a company called recall.
16:21:16 And recall ng contracts with the city to manage all of our compost recycling etc.
16:21:09 But it’s pretty intimate relationship.
16:21:13 And so, you know it’s a city contract essentially that funds, you know, you may call it it’s a private company, but there are many private companies contracting with ecology.
16:21:23 So, it’s a private company, but it’s only contracts or with like the cities in the area. So, even if you today you don’t think that there’s your tax dollars are funding your trash and recycling all that stuff they are one way or another, even if it’s
16:21:37 a private company on the label of the truck that comes by, so I just caution everybody don’t get too hung up on this being like, socialism or communism it’s something like that.
16:21:48 People are donating the things they don’t want, and the state is managing the waste, the way it should be managed, which is great.
16:22:09 And then it works out really well for these malls right it’s not the point of the mall it’s the point of those stores those shops which are all small businesses, and they’re benefiting from it, according to that video all but the IKEA mall shop had what
16:22:11 our best year ever during pandemic because the prices are right for those products.
16:22:16 Right. The because they’re giving these products they can set their own prices there’s no rules there but the IKEA store did suffer it was on a six month project from the informations available out there.
16:22:31 And hopefully the that’s that’s the right step in the right direction, we’ll see more companies step in the social direction, frankly, how many companies are not already doing this Mike How many times have you not seen that refurbished product available
16:22:44 when you’re shopping for new products right so there was already a market out there now they’re there, they’re probably paying them pricing them insanely high.
16:22:53 If there was a real market of, you know, goods that you could get that have been refurbished like an entire mall, like this. I’m sure prices would come way down on the corporate sites.
16:23:05 So I think with our system. It’s all about creating that market it’s all about creating that competition. And who better to do it than your local community people with the skill sets right to refurbish these products.
16:23:20 Yeah, and in the back of my mind and even a little bit skeptical about the IKEA thing because it was like IKEA versus all the other stores in the mall and they didn’t say why IKEA didn’t do so well, but I could see where IKEA might have a vested interest
16:23:33 so that it doesn’t do too well, because it could compete with their standard model. They’re not the most expensive furniture out there.
16:23:41 So, they probably don’t want to cannibalize their own customers or something but I thought it was notable that they didn’t go into any explanation as to why the IKEA store didn’t perform at the same level as all the other shops in that mall, so interesting,
16:23:59 because it’s the only one that has a major corporation associated with it, there’s something to be said about marketing, you know, and when you throw IKEA furniture into just a warehouse.
16:24:10 I mean, the North, I know IKEA warehouses that, but they really dial it up and it looks really cool and they make everything look really like it didn’t look like it had the same pizzazz right so it just might be that simple issue, less of that space to
16:24:25 play less of the imagination that happens in a typical IKEA score store that gets you to purchase that thing.
16:24:32 Yeah, you’re right. The IKEA experience, isn’t there, which it is or you have to start in the beginning and go all the way to.
16:24:46 Very few opportunities to cut through it’s frustrating. My opinion.
16:24:46 Anyway, I digress. This isn’t about IKEA.
16:24:51 It’s about sustainability sustainability and speaking of that small business. So I think that was the Segway you want to go into before I derailed it.
16:25:00 I suppose so because small business is the answer to is the answer to I suppose everything. I don’t see another way, you know every major business was a small business at one time, right any any big product started small, I think it’s really important
16:25:18 that we continue to push on that, as one of our core solutions and, again, Michael I were talking about small businesses solution, a year ago. So then stumble across a video like this, and having an option say oh this really sounds like an ample opportunity
16:25:36 now the problem is it’s going to take some really powerful people to get behind this right this, the citizens, the government etc. So I think it’s a matter of self rule right so the small business owners right now or some of the most powerful people in
16:25:53 in the communities. So I’m really looking for them to step up and see the benefit of a major recycling effort or more sustainable programs for the city but city leadership.
16:26:06 It’s going to take that with that.
16:26:11 Totally, yeah, and to steal from the next bullet we have out here.
16:26:17 The age of self rule that we’re in, you know, we’re fortunate enough to be born in a time in place in the United States where citizens still have a modicum of power with their vote.
16:26:27 You know, it means we can innovate, we can we can replace the dinosaurs of old industry and start, you know, scaling from small businesses or just really support, like back to our previous call we would love to see a proliferation of small business you
16:26:43 know we have a lot of ideas about how you take the risk, or how you help people take the risk of becoming their own small businesses, because at the end of the day, it’s one of the best ways to generate wealth if it’s not property ownership, which is
16:26:59 a whole nother ball game, but I think that for us. You know, we’re we are willing to bet towns and cities are much older than this globalization model that’s going on.
16:27:14 And we believe that it’s entirely reasonable that the model of neighborhoods and local Main Street, will be the place for the future economy to thrive.
16:27:24 And if we are really community focused on these solutions. We might even see the malls thrive, you know, a different type of mall than we knew in the past, and one that actually like what I can’t remember we’re sorry sorry before the malls failed.
16:27:51 So, I believe that, again, the malls were built with an original purpose, but they may come back and a resurgence with this main street focus and again we’re such a large country now that Main Street can just be that one mile in the middle of town right
16:28:07 there, there needs to be main streets, many Main Streets across America but again this, the centralization model that were pushed towards as Americans is very problematic.
16:28:18 There needs to be many many downtown’s not just one. Only I know that’s not great for the cities but frankly I don’t think they want the traffic. So San Francisco.
16:28:31 Yeah, and I think it begs us just from the circular economy approach and the donut accounting approach for us to be cleaning up our streets and, you know, actually considering the end of life for all products that get produced, rather than just for it
16:28:46 to get sold one time, and that’s it someone else’s problem what happens to it after that that that model is run its course.
16:28:53 And if, you know, every community I mean I think every community out there probably even has like a dumpster LA or something right if you think about the garbage mattresses the TV’s the discarded vacuum cleaners whatever the heck it is when you’re driving
16:29:09 down one street or another and you see it discarded outside.
16:29:13 That was potentially, you know, a functional piece of something that should have been put back into use.
16:29:20 And now it’s really becoming waste right it goes into a state of disrepair whereas if we had a place where people can just deliver those things to, and they don’t have to pay a fee, you know, because today, a lot of people you have to pay a fee to go
16:29:31 dump your trash.
16:29:34 That would totally switch things around and then supply affordable products to the stores. I mean, it’s also kind of an anti inflation move away.
16:29:45 If people’s dollars if we’re not willing to pay them 15 to $20 an hour and their dollar start becoming worth less than we need an option for people to be able to buy more with those dollars.
16:29:57 just makes sense I mean there’s just so many aspects that it makes sense to just not to the status quo, right, not to the current system
16:30:05 on that new thing for us take a break.
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16:31:35 Now it living in what’s supposed to be one of the greatest nations in the world.
16:31:41 I cannot for the life of me understand why we have so many empty strip malls.
16:31:51 Why do we have these huge basically relics of big box stores that came in when bookstores that failed all these different masters of the economy at one time.
16:32:08 It’s just, we’re in a really weird state as a country, and I don’t know who is to blame Is it the landowners that want the high rent, who’s keeping the small businesses from starting up, or is it just because they become land deserts are commerce deserts,
16:32:27 if you will, no one’s willing to step back into the strip malls, unless there’s an anchor but it seems like the anchors are gone. It does seem like more and more it becomes a responsibility of this state.
16:32:41 Just a bit to help encourage opportunity, and we’re not saying the state comes in and opens a store that’s communism. Okay, but the state creates a supply.
16:32:51 If you create a supply and say here is all this available supply of product that we’re making available for free.
16:33:01 Believe me, they will come it’s like the Field of Dreams right we’ll call it the strip mall of dreams right if you, if you build it they will come. So you’re telling this me that the city doesn’t have enough power to get those Landover owners to turn
16:33:16 over the building temporarily as a warehouse to do an experiment to do a project or you’re telling me the city doesn’t have enough money to pay rent. Okay, so you it’s just a matter of will, it’s it seems more and more like that it’s a political will
16:33:32 issue. And in the people that are at the seat of government that are supposed to be the organized ones and coordinating this or not, which is why self rule is such an important either to create the account of the ability pressure, or to do it ourselves
16:33:48 right, because I think our government allows us to organize thankfully, and kind of self solution this. Yeah.
16:33:56 Yeah. And unfortunately we have a dearth of vision we’re missing a lot of vision too, because everybody’s constrained by how to make the most profit from a situation when that isn’t always the best solution.
16:34:07 And just to reiterate, to the point on the point you were making as far as a state or city investment goes, it’s only in refurbishing the products. I mean, on the Swedish model, the only place they’re involved is collecting and turning the product around.
16:34:22 After that the stores are responsible for selling it and paying the rent so it becomes it’s almost like it’s this very slight intermediary role that the state inserts itself into to help facilitate market capitalism.
16:34:38 Because after that point it’s just capitalism so you got a free, you know your supply on your product is cost free, you know that that’s, that is what the state is helping to happen but then the.
16:34:55 You know what gets paid forward is the opportunity for these small businesses to generate revenue people to actually have products that they need to have at a price that makes sense for the world, like, for our environment.
16:35:06 So it’s like a very holistic way about using as little public money as possible to spur economic activity.
16:35:18 In a way, I mean, if I can, that make sense. Yeah, and but is the view.
16:35:25 I mean this is a whole nother episode but I hope that the corporations are not putting their thumb on these efforts right because it’s not good for them right purchasing new product, the right to repair is not good for corporations.
16:35:42 And I think that’s a key piece here the right to repair and that ability now they may not putting their thumbs on it, but they could be lifting it and so I do think I key again they’re not sponsors, nothing like that.
16:35:53 But I was happy to see I key and I hope they keep doing it because making a profit, like you said, it’s not always the most important thing if the general companies profitable than in the sense that it’s a corporate responsibility thing.
16:36:07 Then in the sense that it’s a corporate responsibility thing. Yeah, yeah yes G or whatever you want to call it. Maybe that’s it. Maybe it’s something else.
16:36:14 But.
16:36:15 All right.
16:36:16 Why don’t we slide into some calls to action.
16:36:21 So the first the first note we have appear for call to action. So, all this is happening for the example we’ve been talking about in Sweden today it’s basically on a local level.
16:36:30 I mean Sweden’s a relatively small country in Europe. So, but it’s local to this particular municipality I can’t remember the name of the town, but it was a town where back in the 1970s their steel industry disappeared.
16:36:44 Sound familiar.
16:36:45 There’s a lot of ghost towns in America similarly situated where their heyday primary industry went away and.
16:36:54 And in this town the Swedes were able to create this economy this additional economy of activity going on, and it’s very hopeful so that, though the reason why I bring that up is because it’s happening at a local level and so here in the United States.
16:37:08 That’s where we tend to as citizens tend to have the most power and authority, with our vote, and our ability to comment on the decisions that our municipalities are making.
16:37:20 So at the local level we can explore recreating this model for us for for the way it would work in each of our communities, and do it in a systemic way that makes it resilient, you know where trashes turned into another person’s gold and sold in a responsible
16:37:36 and sustainable way.
16:37:38 You know, and it’s not just on the backs of Salvation Army goodwill Buffalo Exchange, that we actually create these marketplaces, these robust marketplaces where many small businesses can participate.
16:37:53 I think would be really valuable.
16:37:55 And then, and since you and thank you for bringing up goodwill because many of you will say I donate to Goodwill I do it, but goodwill itself is a for profit company, it’s not necessarily considered small business anymore by any means.
16:38:11 And so we are looking at a sustainable model means competition, a much larger marketplace, then, then, then frankly goodwill could handle. In fact goodwill had to dump, they had to pay a million dollar trash bill because they couldn’t handle the influx
16:38:28 of items coming in during the pandemic, so they won’t be able to scale they cannot scale, they need the public’s help.
16:38:37 Exactly. That’s a great point Ray.
16:38:41 And there’s another side effective, try and take some action in the space, even if it’s just in your own thoughts, changing our thoughts can feel like an action.
16:38:51 So we hope the seed is getting planted to help you all of us think more and about the full life cycle of our purchases.
16:39:00 And the long time, standing practices of allowing marketing to divorce us from the true costs of unbridled and unconsidered consumption.
16:39:12 right the the consumer economy of the 1950s is dying, and it’s killing the earth with it. And so it’s time for us to start implementing new models from the ground up.
16:39:24 In order to replace it with something that’s better.
16:39:29 So then the burden comes to you to begin finding out how your town can get better at recycling reducing reusing and repurposing, as well as composting and capturing bio gases from landfills.
16:39:42 I mean, when we look at countries like Sweden. It doesn’t just stop at this revolutionary new kind of like mall repurposing.
16:39:50 There’s a lot of things that they’ve been doing from a sustainability perspective that we can learn from and benefit from.
16:39:56 And we can do that, do it differently in our communities and we can do it on scales that are differently but it all starts with us thinking differently, thinking about different thinking differently about consuming about buying.
16:40:10 And what’s going to happen with those things, there’s places that are doing the right thing. I always pay an extra tax when I shop in California, I think there’s a some sort of electronic recycling tax right but my question is what’s happening to the
16:40:24 money. It should be going to programs like this it should be going to a mall to recycle these for products right so is it.
16:40:33 I just, I understand the punitive nature, but it shouldn’t be prohibitive. It should be, it should be creating that sustainable environment right in that sense.
16:40:45 So, but that is good news right maybe you feel better purchasing in California, because you know, they are they have this super sustainable environment where they’re recycling their products there’s accessibility to these devices, it could be a beautiful
16:40:59 thing.
16:41:04 with just a little less profit marginally less profit, huh.
16:41:06 Yeah.
16:41:17 I have a skeptical eye as to exactly how effective the recycling fee is here because I recently had a cell phone die. And I won’t tell you how difficult, but it was difficult to figure out what to do with that phone, because in order to send it anywhere
16:41:25 they want it to work.
16:41:27 My phone was dead.
16:41:29 Nobody wants a dead phone, but it still has a battery that can’t go in a landfill.
16:41:36 And so I looked up like three.
16:41:38 Who knows what these things were half of them weren’t even open they don’t have websites, I was like, Okay, I, I’m not doing that. So in any case I am skeptical, as to how effective environmental recovery recycle fee thing is, is going.
16:41:57 I think it would be better if we had something more tangible to see and to take it like to a place like this.
16:42:03 What’s it called.
16:42:06 Very forgot the name of it so bad return.
16:42:14 If we had a return, I know I wouldn’t feel a lot more sorry that’s just sounds like a sushi restaurant. It’s not your fault. You’re thinking, it’s not your fault it’s Dutch, or you know their thing you’re you’re explaining something different.
16:42:22 Yeah, I think it’s like a retune retuned tuna, but I every time I see it I just think you’re, you’re making your you’re making tuna, tuna.
16:42:31 Okay.
16:42:34 Anyway, I digress. That’s the end of our episode for today thank you everybody.
16:42:37 We have been your host thank you to Mr. Raymond, Jr. And thank you mr Pisco tell you this is truly been a reuse responsible reuse of a conversation.
16:42:50 I love bringing it back to doughnuts they’re so good.
16:42:54 Thank you for the time it’s been something that’s for sure.
16:42:57 For information on this and other episodes head over to citizen do good, calm and click on podcast. While you’re there, hit up the Contact Us page and leave a comment, we’d love to hear from the community.
16:43:07 Special thanks to you our listeners we saved the best for last. You are the best and you have been for years. Thank you for your support we know it’s painful and we love you.


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