S2 E35 | Patriotism for our Republic

 

S2 E35 Patriotism for our Republic

Discussion topics in this episode:

  • We put the spotlight on what it means to be a patriot in our republic. What patriotism looks like in our republic juxtaposition to insurrection. Don’t get them confused!
  • The ongoing sliding scale of democratic self-rule and why we allow it to oscillate between freedom and authority. Self-rule is a messy business and when times are tough, we tend to sacrifice our civil liberties and create autocracies among the states. That is a fear response that we must resist.
  • A recent ruling from one of the initial cases coming to bear against the insurrectionists on January 6, 2021. In Judge Amy Berman Jackson’s words while sentencing an insurrectionist, “Patriotism is loyalty to country, loyalty to the Constitution, not loyalty to a head of state. That is the tyranny we rejected on July 4.” Read in: King of England be damned, this is the United States!
  • The dangers of political parties are showing their colors. Please check out S1 S6 | The Politics of Party. Elections, like court cases, are best designed to bring any contest to a conclusion. It is not always fair, but it should be essentially by the book. When loyalty to a party or one person or the idea of one person is an affront to operating our system of representative government. The founders were leery of kings and irrational laws and sycophants alike.
  • Following the rules is very patriotic and if we do not like the rules, it is in our power to change them. It is in fact our responsibility as citizens to sponsor a system that calls foul balls and enforces the strike-outs. This is the same spirit in which we play sports and expect one another to not be a poor loser.  This is how we should view and respect our system of laws.
  • Calls to Action:
    • Let us know your definition of “Patriot” in reference to this episode. How do you feel about ours?
    • Before you run off and start defending our system as a patriot, first read your state’s constitution! If that’s too much to start, go re-read the Constitution of the United States. You should know what you are trying to defend without taking anyone else’s word for it.

Voices

  • Michael V. Piscitelli
  • Raymond Wong Jr.

More info

  • MVP wanted to put the message out there that the best way forward for all of us to live freely as Americans is to treat everyone equally under the law and each other with dignity and respect. We must accept the fact that all who are not native are descendants of immigrants and/or slaves. Anthropology teaches us that gene flow comes and gene flow goes, so too does immigration. We need to be steadfast in our principles, as a nation of immigrants, to maintain the United States as a shining light upon a hill with a beacon of promise like no other land on Earth. Sharing is caring and caring brings happiness. Off the soapbox…
  • We have transcripts now! Come to the episode page on our site to check it out. It’s all AI, not us, so forgive us for any mistakes.
  • Please feel free to share your thoughts through our Contact Us page or on Facebook.

Special thanks to

  • Our ongoing supporters, thank you!
  • Our sponsor CitizenDoGood.com .
  • Intro music sampled from “Okay Class” by Ozzy Jock under creative commons license through freemusicarchive.org.
  • Other music provided royalty-free through Fesliyan Studios Inc.

Transcript

The following transcript was taken using AI technology. We cannot vouch for its accuracy. Read at your own risk. These are time-stamped from the day we recorded and unfortunately not name stamped.

Citizens Prerogative Podcast Closed Caption Transcript
S2 E35 Patriotism for our Republic

11:21:04 In times like these being a citizen as a big job. Thank you for joining us to celebrate the virtues of self rule and debate the state of our republic.
11:21:12 Welcome to the citizens prerogative podcast. This is the voice of your nerdy host Michael Pisco Telly and we are blessed with a co host whose passion for our republic precedes him everywhere he goes, Raymond, Jr.
11:21:24 Thank you. Thank you. it was judicious to be here today.
11:21:33 This is episode number 35 we’re still in season two, and we’ve just finished the back to basic series of episodes, and now we’re moving into just a usual set of episodes for the time being.
11:21:48 Today, specifically we’re going to be talking more about patriotism, it’s timely because we’re starting to see some of the sentencing and, and some of the responses of the judiciary, to some of the individuals who storm the capital earlier this year around
11:22:05 January 6 or on the day of January six the date that should live in infinite infamy for now on.
11:22:15 It is an interesting experiment and democracy that we’re watching.
11:22:20 We’re seeing the three branches of government, which rightfully so have their checks and balances and we’re seeing that the judicial branch is taking the adults position in the room.
11:22:33 Thankfully, so we are it’s very interesting for me to see how patriotism is playing out because Congress seems confused about patriotism, and although the president, you know the administrative branches trying to realign things, itself, is having a hard
11:22:48 time aligning the people.
11:23:03 Yeah.
11:22:53 The executive and legislative branches are a little bit hamstrung pardon the phrase but I mean they’re, they’re tied up by politics.
11:23:04 Right, more than anything.
11:23:06 And we’ve covered this and we’ll probably start going back to some of the earlier episodes, like in season one and whatnot, just to kind of bring back some of those themes.
11:23:16 But we had talked about that, you know, in, in prior episodes, the, the gravity that political parties create and how it works our system, you know how it was not necessarily originally envisioned to sustain parties.
11:23:34 Because parties are self interested, right, and not necessarily align their self interest with the greater good, that the government should be concerned with.
11:23:46 And so you see these parties were really, really, you know, come, come to power so to speak in how they control government after elections.
11:23:57 And then judiciary so far.
11:23:59 I mean, up until this, you know, up until recent decades perhaps maybe some people can argue it’s always been a little bit political but it’s supposed to not be political.
11:24:10 Right, the judiciary is supposed to be all about the law and interpreting the law, regardless of your politics, you should be using logic and precedence.
11:24:21 And the written word of the law passed by various legislators.
11:24:27 It’s scary to me to think that we have this three legged table. And we’re really leaning on one and and what is reassuring though is that we’ve seen disbarment right we’ve seen action from the judiciary that is actually giving us clear guidance, which
11:24:45 is the whole idea of the ruling the idea of the ruling the decision. I just hope that people continue to follow the rulings right. How long can the system bear the political elites stoking their base and then blaming the courts we saw it a little during
11:25:02 the Bush administration right activists courts, was a big topic during that time.
11:25:12 Yeah, it’s,
11:25:12 it’s been interesting to see how the courts have gotten involved in in elections, especially because historically they, they haven’t really gotten involved in elections.
11:25:23 Usually the elected bodies.
11:25:26 Resolve elections. So, let’s make that a pivot point to just revisit a little bit of, you know what, what happened on January six what could have happened.
11:25:37 Not necessarily just storming the capital. But the idea of counting the electors votes in those mahogany boxes that were, you know, in Congress and the Senate.
11:25:50 And what votes get placed in those mahogany boxes right because these were the votes of the slates of electors from the Electoral College.
11:26:00 In many cases, And so those little actors are chosen by each state based on each state’s rules or laws.
11:26:08 Back in the day, if we go all the way back presidents were selected by a vote in the Senate.
11:26:16 If I recall correctly. And then if the senate couldn’t come to a clear conclusion on who is going to be the president then it went to the house, which involved more votes.
11:26:27 You know, so that’s the old school way of doing things before we were all fully enfranchised with our bow our representatives were the ones selecting the president.
11:26:38 And if you go back, you know, to that around that era state houses were, you know, eventually, also involved in selecting who estate was voting for for President.
11:26:53 Right, and so on January six one of the arguments that was being made.
11:26:59 especially like Georgia.
11:27:01 I don’t know if many of the other states were having to face down some of these, these arguments they were saying, well, we don’t have confidence in the voting, that was executed at the county level.
11:27:15 We want the state house to replace the popular vote.
11:27:20 Excuse me, the popular vote, where individuals cast their ballots at the county, throw that out, and just take a vote in their legislature. Right. So, the legislature and a lot of these cases was controlled by Republicans.
11:27:37 So they had a vested interest a throughout the electors that were selected by the people, and replace them with their own.
11:27:47 And historically speaking they have the power and the authority to do that.
11:27:50 Now they didn’t.
11:27:52 Because that power play came too late and they didn’t line up their secretaries of states and you know too many people were beholden to their constitutions rather than these crazy people that are telling them not to listen to their constitutions at the
11:28:05 state level, you know it’s it’s pretty severe.
11:28:10 I don’t know if you know I haven’t seen any of the documentaries yet on it and whatnot but we came very close to slipping back into a time in the past and America, you know, and when you know the elites really executed elections are conducted elections
11:28:28 on our behalf.
11:28:31 And that didn’t happen. Thankfully, right, they preserve the boxes, people storm the capital to try and interrupt that process, but they preserve the boxes and those boxes contain the results of the People’s vote.
11:28:44 But let’s be clear again the staff, right the the unpaid staff and the of the of the capital preserve the boxes arrived that the senators and all them coward and barricaded the doors and then claimed later that it was tourists, so it’s it’s really a challenging
11:29:02 situation to see that there was an active effort and I think this we’re going to show in the end the investigation may show that there was an active concerted effort to actually overturn the election to destroy the ballads, just to create the confusion,
11:29:18 just to force the states to have to go back and revisit this, and that level of chaos, what would have been detrimental to the entire system, it would have shaken the very core of what our Constitution is and I just want to go back to that Michael, we
11:29:32 need to remind our listeners that fact that the government, like the amount of voting power we have now is subjective, the states have a lot of power to overturn our will and that goes back to what we’ve said in the past that the, the government doesn’t
11:29:46 trust us to make our own decisions. Right. They have to have this pressure valve which is extremely dangerous, which shows its danger, with the January six insurrection this pressure valve is extremely dangerous and it’s only there for the elites, it’s
11:30:01 not there for us, it’s in case the elites are like, oh they made the wrong decision this time. Right.
11:30:08 Yeah.
11:30:10 Yeah. They see it as you know the patriarchy always sees itself as taking care of the system that they put in place.
11:30:20 And so, you know, at any point in time, they can recall or, you know, re entrench that power.
11:30:28 Remove the power of the choice from us and further republican sighs.
11:30:36 Meaning, you know, more and franchise our representatives than the citizens right so it’s it’s a struggle between a dichotomy between Republic representative democracy, through, you know, our republic versus small the democracy, making each individual’s
11:30:55 voice count.
11:30:58 And that dichotomy you know that that little bit of stress there has always been present ever present in our system and we have to be careful not to slide back away from having greater democracy, which is what we have today.
11:31:12 When your vote counts. But make no mistake about it more important than democracy is the republic functioning is the Republic, working. So, these valves are there to uphold, maybe or sustain in a moment of crisis the legitimacy of our system that it can
11:31:33 come to a conclusion.
11:31:35 Right, we can watch an election and still have a decision and move forward.
11:31:40 It may not be the popular choice.
11:31:44 But the republic continues to live another day and then perhaps make itself a more perfect union.
11:31:51 In the future, but it doesn’t always concern itself with that in the moment right it’s more interested in survival.
11:32:02 Think about it, rather than let the system appear a failure you know there’s these moments of patriarchy that gets inserted to say okay well, that didn’t work.
11:32:21 It’s okay, we can work around it, we have mechanisms in place it’s, It’s a mature Republic model.
11:32:20 I appreciate those mechanisms and I know they’re purposeful I know they serve a purpose but you know when it comes to, you know, so then when we look at patriotism as a topic, you know, where did they violate it because we all support the the right to
11:32:38 protest we at least myself I could speak to I’m very pro Black Lives Matter protests. I know there was private property damage and such, but what happened, that these protesters, they become not just protesters they become insurrection it’s like, what’s
11:32:53 the difference between protests we saw throughout last summer, and what happened to the capital Why can’t they be called patriots.
11:33:03 Great question.
11:33:05 When, when protest goes wrong, or when the line becomes crossed.
11:33:11 And it’s not just property damage.
11:33:13 Right.
11:33:15 So let’s, let’s pivot to some quotes here.
11:33:31 Ray and I were talking a little bit about the news because there has recently been, you know, some sentencing that’s happened, and there’s a judge recently made some headlines here in the sentencing of a man from Michigan, so he, he was one of the individuals
11:33:35 who storm the capital on January six, and from his point of view, and the argument he makes on behalf of his compatriots or comrades who storm the capital is that they are true patriots trying to save the republic from some kind of false voting records
11:33:57 for which there is no evidence right.
11:34:00 But they are painting themselves as these patriots and subsequently being arrested and put in jail. You’re like a political, you’re now going to argue your political prisoner, somehow.
11:34:13 And so, in any case this first decision that came out kind of puts all that to bed because it puts it in crystal clear perspective, and it ties perfectly into the definition of a patriot.
11:34:27 So I’m going to skip to one.
11:34:39 One thing in here that just gets right to the point. So this is quoting the judge in the case when she was delivering the sentencing of this individual who was found guilty. You call yourself, and everyone else patriots. But that’s not patriotism.
11:34:45 This is judge Amy Berman Jackson.
11:34:49 She says patriotism is loyalty to country, loyalty to the Constitution. Not loyalty to a head of state. That is the tyranny, we rejected on July, 4, and the head of state she’s referring to is the king of England.
11:35:13 We didn’t believe in in King then and we don’t believe in a king now.
11:35:15 Wow. That’s that and that’s that’s a ruling which is I think powerful and it’s going to, it’s going to ring throughout history I hope, and there is an ideal that we don’t believe in the king and and we just need to remind folks if you haven’t listened
11:35:28 to past broadcasts. There was no executive branch in the first version of our government. They reluctantly added the executive wing they never wanted the executive branch.
11:35:42 But it became necessary right, it became necessary for the sake of strategy and and direction and policy but Jeez, like, they never wanted it.
11:35:54 Yeah, very, what is it Once bitten twice shy, it’s like oh we’re going to stand up a whole new system let’s not just have it topple under the weight of another king.
11:36:05 And, and it was very it was set up in a way that you know the person that you ran against was your vice president you didn’t get the hand pick your vice president.
11:36:13 So, in a ways it was a system designed very well for collaboration, which we’ve abandoned, in a sense.
11:36:21 Yeah, yeah politics have come to bear to bring us a unified ticket and things of that nature so yeah we had some stumbling blocks blocks early on.
11:36:32 And we’re here now, and we’re still stumbling. So, if I think about what you just said about what is patriotism right it’s a loyalty and. And I do think about that the individuals like those, those state level officials who stuck to their constitution
11:36:47 stuck to the truth, because, really, that it’s like we’ve talked about integrity in business all the time there’s that discussion of integrity. It really is just a decision to, oh I guess I won’t steal any customer information, you know, like it’s just
11:37:01 a decision right yeah and and it does require you to critically examine information you’re receiving from one place by testing it against another, like, read the Constitution, or look up your local state constitution if you know your.
11:37:20 If you feel like you are taking an action in defense of that constitution, you should probably read it first to make sure that you’re actually, that’s what your actions are doing.
11:37:30 But, you know, this is all a Passion Play.
11:37:45 I have a couple more quotes in here, this is, this is from another. I think this is from another case.
11:37:43 But basically, the statement was made by another judge another case that there, I mean the courts are really seeing the insurrection as as terrorizing members of Congress.
11:37:56 Essentially the quote here is.
11:37:59 And then in addition to that, you know, Patriots are not the ones who attacked the operations of Congress. That’s revolution, not patriotism.
11:38:08 So, basically we all are citizens of the system. We all are beholden to the rules, and the only way the system works is when we all essentially follow the rules together.
11:38:21 And that one set of rules is clearly outlined in the constitution any subsequent decisions challenges to it.
11:38:29 So,
11:38:32 that loyalty right comes back to loyalty, And the political parties have done a very good job of warping people’s sense of where their loyalties should lie, especially you know if I want to pick one or the other, when you, when you look at loyalty as
11:38:50 a function of a party. It’s very republican capital, our way of thinking.
11:38:57 Right, being loyal to the party being loyal to that, the heads of that party like, Liz Cheney just got taken out right as taken us around phrase but she just lost her seat as third most powerful.
11:39:10 I think Republican in Congress right recently that was within the last six months.
11:39:17 Because she, her loyalty wasn’t for the party for loyalty wasn’t to this former head of state or loyalty, was to the constitution to the system, which is not what they want right now in the current system right they want you to behold, behold into in
11:39:38 whatever is going to make the most profit and continue to line the pockets of the politicians I don’t know exactly what they’re motivated by but what I am, I’m moved by this idea that so so to me patriotism is almost like getting, I just think about in
11:39:55 my head like getting on the freeway. We all agree and get on these roadways and we all use the roadways on the freeways, for the most part you have variants once in a while but the, we are capable, the citizens are capable of showing patriotism in the
11:40:23 sense of following the law and doing things where we all interact with each other, but also create the greatest harm I can’t think anything other than a freeway traveling at 80 miles per hour, but yet we all, pull it off and intersections are an interesting
11:40:28 microcosm and following the rules.
11:40:31 Right. And it’s an American experiment to uniquely because you don’t see it’s not very effective in other countries.
11:40:38 You notice that like our rule of law is a little bit heavier there’s, there’s something going on with left turn lanes and in Arizona I don’t know about you but people, the red light, doesn’t mean anything anyone for left turn arrows but there’s still
11:40:51 an overall adherence. A large adherence to law. I feel in traffic laws one of them right because it’s the it’s the most likely place you’re going to face the judicial system, which is very efficient in passing the judgment and then getting financial compensation.
11:41:08 And that’s if you survive. Right, so the first. Hopefully the first inkling is self preservation and then once you survive the accident you hope the law doesn’t come down on you too hard.
11:41:19 I like that yeah self preservation you’re right it probably plays a, I’ve always just thinking about the law that’s the only reason I don’t run people off the road.
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11:41:44 Citizen do good values of the promise of all of the amendments to the Constitution, along with the original core documents, taken together they form a framework and an operating manual for the Republic, and it provides us with the means to change with
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11:43:04 I think that when we started talking about this episode how we’re going to approach it.
11:43:11 I had a much different idea about what patriotism is especially in my youth, you know, I thought that was just cheering. I thought that was just having a flag up right I thought that was.
11:43:24 I didn’t give it that every day personal responsibility could be patriotism. And I think it’s important we talked about this Mike, I appreciate you putting this one forward because patriotism is being hijacked patriotism is at risk of becoming a bad word.
11:43:42 Yeah. No, that’s a great point. And it’s a good one to leave us with right to talk a little bit about the call to action for each of us to maybe become a little bit more familiar with the rules are you know now that we’ve got people storming capitals
11:43:58 and things of that nature. It behooves all of us to take a moment and re familiarize ourselves with some of the founding documents, not just the federal government’s founding documents, but your state.
11:44:13 You know your local government, take, take a minute and go check out your County’s website, you know, your county has a website, you’re paying taxes for all their salaries.
11:44:23 Check out what kind of services and things they have going on there, but the more you know about the Republic and the more you know about how your local government operates the more more empower.
11:44:37 You’ll be.
11:44:39 And that’s truly a patriotic thing to do, right like we’ve been.
11:44:44 If we take a step back and we really appreciate the republic as a gift from our ancestors. However flawed, they may have been the idea of this country and this is something many presidents have brought up many politicians are, you know, representatives
11:45:04 throughout the years are brought up the fact that this country is difficult, and it’s difficult for a good reason because it’s born of an idea, not have a blood, or have a culture.
11:45:15 And it’s the idea that we’re all born with an inalienable rights.
11:45:21 And we should be free to pursue happiness and this whole thing’s been set up to help facilitate that. At the end, and loyalty to that, you know, loyalty to this premium amazing system it’s unique on the earth.
11:45:36 And it’s interesting to us to, you know, keep improving it, making it a more perfect union. How could you be, what could be less you know more patriotic than caring about that.
11:45:52 And speaking up for it.
11:45:56 You know it’s okay for us to be critical. It’s important for us to be critical I mean that’s, you know, tough love is probably the truest love.
11:46:05 And I don’t mean that, you know, from physically abusive perspective but when you critically examine things like the systems that were all beholden to and that are supposed to help us all along.
11:46:16 You know, we can make them better. We can’t make them better if we don’t look at things critically so you know that’s the kind of love, we have to bring to the table.
11:46:24 And it’s not looking at it critically just, why not just why it doesn’t work for me, you know it’s it’s for all of us to.
11:46:33 But you know what, if it’s the selfish motivation, you know that gets you to that point where you’re investing your time and your energy into becoming more of a patriot then that’s fine with me.
11:46:45 I know whatever gets you there right.
11:46:48 It’s interesting. As I think about what we can do as a call to action, I feel more and more that just have to engage in the conversation.
11:46:59 For me Patriot, and I find myself being more and more concerned with patriots if you will but now I am pulling back and saying, Wait a minute. I just needed to be part of the conversation and say, Oh, that’s not patriotism they weren’t patriots you know
11:47:14 don’t let them fool you, it’s, it’s really patriotism is following the law. Following the constitution following the common bond. And I think we all can understand what was wrong with January six is what’s wrong with, and if anybody did that to your house.
11:47:29 I mean that this is the people’s house, which means it is your house as well. And we all know there are rules when it comes to barging into someone’s front door, or even breaking their window, which is even worse, that general bond that I think patriotic
11:47:45 ideal that we respect the property that we respect each other’s space, if you will.
11:47:53 It was violated that and I don’t understand how any American good American can look at what happened that day, and not understand why it crossed the line, and why it was an absolute violation.
11:48:09 Yeah, I can’t get my mind unstuck from the sports metaphors. I mean, when we talk about peaceful transition of power and that’s like one of the biggest ceremonies.
11:48:21 That makes our Republic, peaceful, is that whole transition of power is that the loser concedes.
11:48:32 Everything about that, to me smacks of sports.
11:48:36 You know you were such a sports culture, and we have such a sports mentality then think of it from that perspective, right, what, what ball game. Do you want to watch or play in, where the rules can be changed the game.
11:48:52 Right. And you can contest who who won or lost the game at the end in perpetuity. Like, how in any way is any of that definitive and helpful to move forward.
11:49:05 Just like in sports, you know, we have to be good losers in politics, we also have to be. We have to be good sports and good losers in that, in that perspective, right, we have to concede power when it makes sense, based on the rules we’ve all agreed
11:49:21 to ahead of time.
11:49:24 It’s amazing to me that you keep drawing these intersection analogies and things I didn’t even like with just sports. But now I feel armed and ready to, to have a old conversation about trying to bring certain people along to understand why constitution
11:49:42 matters and why the process matters that was interrupted on the six.
11:49:49 Yeah, guess what, there’s gonna be another election, the rules say we do it every four years.
11:49:56 So, you know, get come back play the game better next time right and, and maybe your ideas will win maybe they won’t, but we’ll have four years to figure that out, you know, one election is the end of anything in our system.
11:50:14 It can’t be.
11:50:15 We can’t survive that way.
11:50:19 No, it can’t be someone receiving a positive test a drug tests cannot be a media swell that changes policies for the Olympic organization right so I feel like the Olympics themselves.
11:50:35 The rules are the rules. We all follow the rules and if they’re wrong, we change them. That’s patriotism, and I didn’t think about that until the end of this this this episode today it’s been interesting to actually have my own evolution on patriotism
11:50:50 and realize that the more we do things the same and the more we follow the rules is actually being patriotic,
11:51:02 especially when there’s any amount of sacrifice involved in it right on our own for ourselves.
11:51:09 So I think that’s a good place to leave things we’ll see if we get feedback on this one. Maybe there’s some other ideas out there, on how you all are feeling about patriotism, but I think ran I ran you mentioned we maybe we have a mission now to reclaim
11:51:27 that title, and make sure we, you know, reposition exactly what patriotism is so that it doesn’t get confused.
11:51:37 I agree with you.
11:51:39 And I appreciate you supporting that because I didn’t think about it so much until today that it is it is a challenge. It’s a benefit to have patriotism what happened in our past and our history was great, but it’s part of our history, you don’t relive
11:51:56 that you don’t try to reignite and have it happen again.
11:52:02 Experiencing history is one thing I think, trying to revive it and have a grand reliving of it is dangerous.
11:52:10 So So learn from history folks don’t use history as you’re planning mechanism.
11:52:17 Yeah.
11:52:18 You don’t have to make it repeat itself if it’s going to happen it’s going to happen, you just need to be aware of it. It doesn’t need any help.
11:52:29 Think that’s gonna close this out so we have been your host thank you to Mr. Raymond one Jr.
11:52:35 And thank you, Mr Pisco Talia truly has been patriotic, in my opinion.
11:52:42 Yeah, it’s been something that’s for sure.
11:52:45 For information on this and other episodes head over to citizen do calm and click on podcast, while you’re there hit up the Contact Us page and leave a comment, we’d love to hear from the community.
11:52:55 Special thanks to you our listeners, we saved the best for last. You are the best and you have been for years thanks for your support. We know it’s painful and we love you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

“We the people” image by Serge Shop.

 

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